can't find #*%* neutral=can't start bike - help?

[dadadali]

Hi all,

I'm having an awesome time being back on 2 wheels again, and have racked up a few thousand kays on the new R65 mono, mostly while on leave the last couple of weeks down south. This bike has reminded me of the difference between "fast" and "quick" (it is the former, but not the latter), and the simple pleasure of simply proceeding apace.

Sadly ( ), I am the sort who wants to ride every day (commute) but the bike clearly did not want to go to work after my holidays. Here's what happened. Started the bike first time beautifully as always, went to ride off perhaps a wee bit prematurely due to it not quite having totally warmed up on a very cold morn, and I stalled it. Not usually a problem, but now....

I just can't get the thing in neutral, so it simply will not start. I can get it into the "false neutral" that I've occasionally hit a couple of times before (gives you a very faint knocking rattle as the gears just tap each other - not quite neutral) but absolutely cannot get a proper neutral so the light comes on and I can get started. I have tried push-starting, but it just isn't happening. I figured if I could do that then i'd be able to easily get into heutral with the engine actually running.

My theory is that it has a cut-out switch (as so many bikes now do) and that this is also preventing the jump-start.

Here's my real problem. I live in Bunbury. When I bought the bike one of the bike shops down here said they'd happily service etc, but now they have decided that they will not. Leaving no mechanical help that I can find. I asked them about disabling the cut-out but (naturally enough in this litigious age) they couldn't really give me any such info "in case something then went wrong...you understand...".

I have a Haynes manual, for what it's worth. It tells me that my neutral light warning switch is a sealed unit screwed into the bottom of the gearbox, and should it require replacement I'd have to drain the gearbox, remove the engine rear mounting stud and nuts, tap out the central crankcase spacer (which is starting to sound scary for me at least), disconnect the wires, replace and reassemble.

OK, thanks for bearing with me this far, you are a top audience, really.

So, with all the legal disclaimer in the world in place, does anyone know if I can just pull out/disconnect/cut the wire somewhere, will this let me start the bike (based on above cut-out switch theory) and reconnect it once I'm done? Or should I in fact be able to push-start it and it's my technique/patience at fault?

Or, what? Any ideas on getting past this very annoying issue?

Lastly, the Bunbury thing - any local knowledge out there?

Thank you all, and please, any advice/tips/extremely detailed instructions fit for a rank amateur techy like me will certainly be taken as purely a personal opinion with no liability whatsoever attached.

PS I shall be joining the club shortly - hope to see you all on a ride soon!

[2volts]

It should be possible with some effort to disconnect the wires to the neutral switch, but it is in an awkward spot under the gearbox and will take some patience in reaching with long fingers or maybe pliers.

I'm not sure if the wires then need to be connected or not to "simulate" neutral being engaged.

pete

[geoffcnc]

An amateur opinion here, but in principle the neutral switch prevents the bike from starting in gear for safety reasons, but doesn't pulling the clutch in allow you to start in gear anyway? It sounds to me that you may need to pull the gearbox apart and look at the springs and switches etc. Not only the neutral switch, but the clutch switch also perhaps ? Although this sounds and is a relatively major task, our experience with the 5 speed 2V gearboxes within the club, and the tools available through the club, allow this to happen.

Alternatively, remove the gearbox and drop it in to someone like Better Motorcycle Repairs for overhaul (the front 5th gear load bearings are often an issue if they have never been replaced), and periodically the springs etc need replacing. Munich Motorcyles sell a complete overhaul kit that has everything in it. Talk to Bruce perhaps.

....just from experience in the past, and many discussions with Bill, who is sadly missed.

Geoff Edwards

[dadadali]

Thanks Geoff, your opinion sounds more well-thought-out than amateur to me. Sadly for myself I have little actual mechanical experience but I am working on the assumption (until or unless I find out to the contrary) that there is a neutral-cut-out switch - I know for a fact that many new bikes have them and it means the starter motor gets no current with the clutch pulled in, unless the neutral light is also on. Lots of newer bikes have a similar switch attached to the sidestand I believe.

So, I figured as above that I could hopefully push-start it - and once running find neutral again. I'll try again now on the basis that I just have lousy push-start technique. The previous owner (and I believe him) tells me he's never had this problem finding neutral.

Thanks heaps for the tips about the gearbox - from the look of the seals etc I'd be surprised if it's ever been removed. I'll give Better Motorcycles a call tomorrow and see what the have to say.

[newbyrider]

I have exactly the same problem with my bike. Don't know if it will help you but what I have to do is hold the clutch and front brake in (just to keep it still) and rock it forward HARD pushing the front wheel down and forward. Sometimes have to do it a couple of times but I eventually can then find neutral. Most annoying at traffic lights and never works the first time when I am in a hurry.......

[John C]

... as Geoff said, if you pull the clutch in you should be able to get the starter to turn over, regardless of what gear the machine is in, so I would steer well clear of trying to bypass the electrics.

Once the engine's running you should be able to find neutral without too much of an issue ... assuming you are familiar with "the trick".

With the engine running, clutch in (obviously) apply GENTLE pressure to the shifter and SLOWLY release start to release the clutch. As soon as the transmission has some "drag" on it from the engine you should be able to shift gear easily, so pull the clutch back in all the way, and pretty sharpish if you don’t want an “oops” moment. Repeat until you find your real neutral.

I have read a full explanation of why it happens, and it’s apparently due to the fact that we have dry single plate clutches. All I know is it works.

I hope that helps, and it’s not teaching granny to suck eggs, but I used to hate the gearbox on my 1150 until I found out about “the trick"

Cheers

John

[wightman]

There is also supposed to be a cut out switch on the clutch. Check the wiring on those difficult to rech two terminals on the switch. Sometimes they bend too close to each other. John W

[dadadali]

Thanks all for your top suggestions and advice! First up, yes, I can get the bike in neutral, I just needed a bit of patience. Still no neutral light though. Here's the latest update FYI. I've spoken to a proper older-BMW-type mechanic at one of the places as listed by Pete (remaining nameless here for reasons about to be legally obvious) who talked me through the procedure for bypassing the neutral cut-out switch, with appropriate safety warnings etc. It didn't work. Interestingly, even before I tried this, I turned the key in the ignition, and at the half-way-on click there was a "pop", identical to one I heard when I first thought I's stalled the bike, and an almost-ignition moment, where the bike turned over, just one turn. Subsequently nothing. I think the "pop" was from the r/h side of the bike somewhere, and on reflection sounded a bit like what you hear when a power unit in a PC gives up the ghost. So, upon phoning the excellently helpful mechanic again, we have decided that it's most likely either the starter relay or the ignition switch. Going through the Haynes manual again the other night I discovered the clutch cut-out switch in the wiring diagram. I've never had to pull the clutch in to start before. Now my theory goes along the lines of "if there's an electrical fault in a relay/ignition switch then perhaps this is preventing the neutral light coming on also, because there might be a short or break in the current, and if I can find the dodgy component and replace it all will be well". At least it seems not to be the gearbox

This whole frustrating exercise is forcing me to overcome any residual fears I have about my mechanical competency - I really have little choice but to get in there and start taking things apart now. I shall have anothe go at it over the weekend, and in the process hopefully learn to use a multimeter.

BTW, it's very bloody tricky getting those battery straps off isn't it?

Thanks again everyone for dipping in your 2c worth. Keep it coming!.

Cheers.

[dadadali]

OK, so it fixed itself.

Now, I have in the reasonably distant past owned a couple of Ducatis and the odd Italian car so I'm familiar with auto electrics being a bit mysterious. Still, after all this time and effort to go out this morning ready to take the battery out because by now it simply must be getting fairly flat, turn the key "just in case" and see the magic green light - well, it started first time too!

So, I'm thinking that it really was just one of the neutral indicator light switch connections, because the last thing I'd done is re-attempt to earth out the lead, and when this failed and I went to put it all back together I did so with a bit greater than usual force.

Still, I know the clutch cut-out switch isn't working, so I'll be goin g through the whole thing with a multimeter tomorrow, if the weather holds (I don't have a shed or even carport, just a rather good bike cover).

Thanks again everyone.